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| Read a new post about women's equality in the church and in the home Monday, Wednesday, Friday bWebaptistwomenforequality.wordpress.com |
What people are saying:
(Anne)I have to say, reading your blog has been very beneficial for me personally. I was troubled by half-believing a couple of things
comp doctrine says, but with your scriptural understanding and logic you've helped to convince me further that God really is gender-
blind. As a result I've been able to see God as more of a loving Father, perfect in fairness and in how he views all humans. I've been
able to see more of how he sees me - that he doesn't value anyone more than me, and doesn't value me more than anyone else.
Especially not based on gender. I've realised that he loves me and judges me based on my heart, and doesn't take sex into account
when he looks at my soul, or anyone's soul for that matter. That said, he loves me as a woman as well, and sees not a weaker-
made servant but someone of equal strength, who can do a few things that fill in the gaps for men, like men can do a few things that
fill in gaps for us. Other than that, the sexes are no different and neither were meant to 'lead'.
Thanks to your blog, primarily (I've also done some external reading), I've been able to see myself more through God's eyes.
(Kristen) I think what you’re writing is good, strong, old-fashioned common sense, and it is sadly lacking in churches today. Jesus
used it when He told the Pharisees they were tithing mint, dill and cumin, but neglecting righteousness, justice and mercy. To focus
on isolated texts about women and ignore the greater message of love & unity in Christ, is to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
We do need to show how the texts could mean something different than what these people say they mean, but ultimately, the reason
to choose one reading over another has to do with whether the heart is focused on mint, dill & cumin or on righteousness, mercy
and justice.
(Estelle) What about 1 Peter 2:9 where followers of Christ are called ‘a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people
belonging to God…’ ? I see no gender distinctions in this passage. How can ‘royal priesthood’ automatically exclude females?
(Mabel) The bible verses that hierarchists use to suppress women are the same bible verses atheists use to ridicule our faith.
Shirley is right, your faith is judged by how you treat your women. There has been plenty of scholarship on how poorly these verses
had been translated and how some has been added later on.
(T.L.) To the question of what Scriptures say that women can be pastors, I will say that every Scripture that says that men can be
pastors is also addressing women. There is no differentiation. In Paul’s discussions about the callings, motivational grace gifts, and
the spiritual gifts there is no division between gifts for males or gifts for females.
(Charis) Therefore “husband of one wife” cannot mean the exclusion of women from the role in question. If it did, Paul would be
contradicting himself by appointing and commending Deacon Phoebe. Despite the obscuring of her deacon identity by English
translations, she is commended by Paul in Romans 16:1 using the exact same “diakonon”[deacon] word he used in Rom 15:8 for
Christ, Romans 15:25 for himself, and 1 Thes 3:2 for Timothy.
(Boatrocker) The Christian faith is first of all a personal faith, then a personal relationship, then a multi-faceted relationship with
other such individuals. It is gift-based and non-hierarchical, and a daily life to live.
(Amos) “What complementarians are doing is making husbands into little demi-Christs in the home, with the wives in the place of
humans and husbands in the place of deity.”
(Lydia) So, they want me to believe there is a more strict and legalistic law for women in the New Covenant? No, it is belief in flawed
translations (written by men not the Holy Spirit) and spotty hermeneutics that backs up their interpretation. But if they take the WHOLE
periscope, their elevation of themselves does not hold water. They are neo Pharisees.
(Kristen) To unchurched women, gender role is one of the most important issues. To them, it is an indication of the character of the
God we preach. They want nothing to do with a sexist god, We are selling our God short in the eyes of the world with this ridiculous
doctrine.
(Marg) What Women can do in the Church Ok, this one is a joke. Except he doesn’t think it is a joke, and therein lies the danger. It
is found on the Council on Biblical Manhood and Biblical Womanhood website and Wayne Grudem is serious when he attempts to
tell churches what it is that women can’t do in the church.
(Kristen) In Paul’s day, the authority of the “pater familias” over his wife, children and slaves was one of the earthly authorities that
had to be taken into account– and Paul’s words to the Ephesians reflect this understanding. That doesn’t mean that we, as 21st-
century Christians, need to return to a husband-authority structure, especially when our own cultures have abandoned such
structures; any more than we need to go back to serving a king or an emperor just because Paul said, “honor the king.”
(Mabel) The hierarchalists claim that God created men and women equal, but men have authoritative role over women, and women
don’t have authoritative role over men, but have it over other women and children (age not specified, i.e. one day, she has authority
over him, and the next day, when he reaches a certain age, poof, authority gone). BUT, men and women are equal. How ridiculous!
(Shirley Taylor) You named one of the reasons people don’t leave. It is the church members they know and love. It is the actual
building itself that has become home to them. Usually there is not another church close by that they could identify with. Many people
are willing to look to the good things about their church and ignore the bad things because it is their church. However, many, many
people have left. Some have left church altogether. Some have left that denomination. Some have left their home church. A Baptist
leader told me recently that his church was so against women but it took many years before they moved from that church and went to
an egalitarian church. He said now that whenever a young woman is encouraged to preach or other ministry, he and his wife look at
each other with tears in their eyes, thinking about the church they loved that refused women. He loves his new church of the same
denomination – but with a completely different attitude about women. It is a hard choice. Most will continue to ignore the implications
of what their church is teaching as long as they are not personally affected by it. However, when one women is denied full equality
simply because she was born female, all women are denied.
(Mabel) Why do the so called complementarians not practice true complementarianism, which is, let men and women complement
each other, not let one gender has authority over the other gender. That is not complementarian, that is male supremacy on account
of the flesh. When would they turn from this blind spot?
(Marg) I believe that Paul’s prohibition was to one woman in one church for that particular time. This woman was a false teacher
teaching an early form of Gnosticism. No man or woman in Christ should seek to have authority over another believer in the name of
ministry.
(Retha) Shirley, you have not changed things only when Baptists vote to allow women preachers. You have caused change when
one man or woman rethinks this hierarchal doctrine. Keep on working for change, and know the drops are making a stream, and
the stream will become a river.
(From G.A – a complementarian pastor) “I believe that in the correct context women can preach. However, I don’t believe the Text
allows for a woman to be an elder or to exercise authority over a man. Like I stated on my site…I believe that women are integral to
the gospel and to the church. We have to have women serving the body. Women can preach to women, we have a woman in charge
of all of our children’s ministries at our church, and our churches would not have nurseries without women (our church doesn’t allow
men to serve in the nursery).”
(Mabel) I love it when husbands proclaim up and down that husbands are to give their lives for their wives. In the same breath, they
say: We will NEVER give up our authority over you. God appointed me your leader, so follow. Wow, that really is self sacrifice, isn’t it?
(Marg) There are still so many Christian men and women who simply believe that God has designed men to be the leaders,
(spiritually and otherwise), and that women are designed to be the submissive responders. This is what they see demonstrated and
this is what they hear being taught in their church communities. Many Christians believe that male authority and female
subordination is biblically mandated. Until the Church as a whole begins to demonstrate and teach otherwise, I guess I’ll keep
writing about women’s equality. I can’t wait for the day when this will no longer be necessary. One day people will look back at our
debates about women’s equality with incredulity; and wonder why it took so long and why there was ever any doubt about equality in
the first place. I hope that day is very soon.
(Anne)I have to say, reading your blog has been very beneficial for me personally. I was troubled by half-believing a couple of things
comp doctrine says, but with your scriptural understanding and logic you've helped to convince me further that God really is gender-
blind. As a result I've been able to see God as more of a loving Father, perfect in fairness and in how he views all humans. I've been
able to see more of how he sees me - that he doesn't value anyone more than me, and doesn't value me more than anyone else.
Especially not based on gender. I've realised that he loves me and judges me based on my heart, and doesn't take sex into account
when he looks at my soul, or anyone's soul for that matter. That said, he loves me as a woman as well, and sees not a weaker-
made servant but someone of equal strength, who can do a few things that fill in the gaps for men, like men can do a few things that
fill in gaps for us. Other than that, the sexes are no different and neither were meant to 'lead'.
Thanks to your blog, primarily (I've also done some external reading), I've been able to see myself more through God's eyes.
(Kristen) I think what you’re writing is good, strong, old-fashioned common sense, and it is sadly lacking in churches today. Jesus
used it when He told the Pharisees they were tithing mint, dill and cumin, but neglecting righteousness, justice and mercy. To focus
on isolated texts about women and ignore the greater message of love & unity in Christ, is to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
We do need to show how the texts could mean something different than what these people say they mean, but ultimately, the reason
to choose one reading over another has to do with whether the heart is focused on mint, dill & cumin or on righteousness, mercy
and justice.
(Estelle) What about 1 Peter 2:9 where followers of Christ are called ‘a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people
belonging to God…’ ? I see no gender distinctions in this passage. How can ‘royal priesthood’ automatically exclude females?
(Mabel) The bible verses that hierarchists use to suppress women are the same bible verses atheists use to ridicule our faith.
Shirley is right, your faith is judged by how you treat your women. There has been plenty of scholarship on how poorly these verses
had been translated and how some has been added later on.
(T.L.) To the question of what Scriptures say that women can be pastors, I will say that every Scripture that says that men can be
pastors is also addressing women. There is no differentiation. In Paul’s discussions about the callings, motivational grace gifts, and
the spiritual gifts there is no division between gifts for males or gifts for females.
(Charis) Therefore “husband of one wife” cannot mean the exclusion of women from the role in question. If it did, Paul would be
contradicting himself by appointing and commending Deacon Phoebe. Despite the obscuring of her deacon identity by English
translations, she is commended by Paul in Romans 16:1 using the exact same “diakonon”[deacon] word he used in Rom 15:8 for
Christ, Romans 15:25 for himself, and 1 Thes 3:2 for Timothy.
(Boatrocker) The Christian faith is first of all a personal faith, then a personal relationship, then a multi-faceted relationship with
other such individuals. It is gift-based and non-hierarchical, and a daily life to live.
(Amos) “What complementarians are doing is making husbands into little demi-Christs in the home, with the wives in the place of
humans and husbands in the place of deity.”
(Lydia) So, they want me to believe there is a more strict and legalistic law for women in the New Covenant? No, it is belief in flawed
translations (written by men not the Holy Spirit) and spotty hermeneutics that backs up their interpretation. But if they take the WHOLE
periscope, their elevation of themselves does not hold water. They are neo Pharisees.
(Kristen) To unchurched women, gender role is one of the most important issues. To them, it is an indication of the character of the
God we preach. They want nothing to do with a sexist god, We are selling our God short in the eyes of the world with this ridiculous
doctrine.
(Marg) What Women can do in the Church Ok, this one is a joke. Except he doesn’t think it is a joke, and therein lies the danger. It
is found on the Council on Biblical Manhood and Biblical Womanhood website and Wayne Grudem is serious when he attempts to
tell churches what it is that women can’t do in the church.
(Kristen) In Paul’s day, the authority of the “pater familias” over his wife, children and slaves was one of the earthly authorities that
had to be taken into account– and Paul’s words to the Ephesians reflect this understanding. That doesn’t mean that we, as 21st-
century Christians, need to return to a husband-authority structure, especially when our own cultures have abandoned such
structures; any more than we need to go back to serving a king or an emperor just because Paul said, “honor the king.”
(Mabel) The hierarchalists claim that God created men and women equal, but men have authoritative role over women, and women
don’t have authoritative role over men, but have it over other women and children (age not specified, i.e. one day, she has authority
over him, and the next day, when he reaches a certain age, poof, authority gone). BUT, men and women are equal. How ridiculous!
(Shirley Taylor) You named one of the reasons people don’t leave. It is the church members they know and love. It is the actual
building itself that has become home to them. Usually there is not another church close by that they could identify with. Many people
are willing to look to the good things about their church and ignore the bad things because it is their church. However, many, many
people have left. Some have left church altogether. Some have left that denomination. Some have left their home church. A Baptist
leader told me recently that his church was so against women but it took many years before they moved from that church and went to
an egalitarian church. He said now that whenever a young woman is encouraged to preach or other ministry, he and his wife look at
each other with tears in their eyes, thinking about the church they loved that refused women. He loves his new church of the same
denomination – but with a completely different attitude about women. It is a hard choice. Most will continue to ignore the implications
of what their church is teaching as long as they are not personally affected by it. However, when one women is denied full equality
simply because she was born female, all women are denied.
(Mabel) Why do the so called complementarians not practice true complementarianism, which is, let men and women complement
each other, not let one gender has authority over the other gender. That is not complementarian, that is male supremacy on account
of the flesh. When would they turn from this blind spot?
(Marg) I believe that Paul’s prohibition was to one woman in one church for that particular time. This woman was a false teacher
teaching an early form of Gnosticism. No man or woman in Christ should seek to have authority over another believer in the name of
ministry.
(Retha) Shirley, you have not changed things only when Baptists vote to allow women preachers. You have caused change when
one man or woman rethinks this hierarchal doctrine. Keep on working for change, and know the drops are making a stream, and
the stream will become a river.
(From G.A – a complementarian pastor) “I believe that in the correct context women can preach. However, I don’t believe the Text
allows for a woman to be an elder or to exercise authority over a man. Like I stated on my site…I believe that women are integral to
the gospel and to the church. We have to have women serving the body. Women can preach to women, we have a woman in charge
of all of our children’s ministries at our church, and our churches would not have nurseries without women (our church doesn’t allow
men to serve in the nursery).”
(Mabel) I love it when husbands proclaim up and down that husbands are to give their lives for their wives. In the same breath, they
say: We will NEVER give up our authority over you. God appointed me your leader, so follow. Wow, that really is self sacrifice, isn’t it?
(Marg) There are still so many Christian men and women who simply believe that God has designed men to be the leaders,
(spiritually and otherwise), and that women are designed to be the submissive responders. This is what they see demonstrated and
this is what they hear being taught in their church communities. Many Christians believe that male authority and female
subordination is biblically mandated. Until the Church as a whole begins to demonstrate and teach otherwise, I guess I’ll keep
writing about women’s equality. I can’t wait for the day when this will no longer be necessary. One day people will look back at our
debates about women’s equality with incredulity; and wonder why it took so long and why there was ever any doubt about equality in
the first place. I hope that day is very soon.
| Be good husbands to your wives. Honor them, delight in them. As women they lack some of your advantages. But in the new life of God's grace, you're equals. Treat your wives, then, as equals so your prayers don't run aground. 1 Peter 3:7 The Message |
Shirley Taylor of bWe Baptist Women for Equality believes in the Egalitarian view of how women are to be
treated in the church and in the home. She believes that the Bible teaches that women are equal in the church
and in the home. While men and women are certainly different, the gender of a person does not give them
special gifts or favor with God. There are no scriptures that make a certain gender a requirement for service to
the Lord. Also, women should not be denied service in the church simply because she was born a woman.
Women are not incomplete human beings and do not need a leader. Men and women are to help each other in
the raising of their children - as it is the child who needs a leader, not the wife and mother.
The Complementarian Restrictionist view is held by the majority of the churches affiliated with the Southern
Baptist Convention (SBC). The Southern Baptist Convention has in its statement of faith The Baptist Faith and
Message 2000, which says in the Family Section that women need a husband as their leader, both in the
church and in the home. This BF&M 2000 also says that women cannot Biblically be called as a pastor. Almost
all churches that follow the BF&M 2000 will not allow women to be deacons, even though the BF&M 2000 does
not say that women cannot be deacons.
Many Baptist churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention hold the egalitarian view and in theory,
believe that women can be deacons or pastors, but few churches actually have women serving in those
capacities.
Will you join me in speaking out for women's equality in our churches?
treated in the church and in the home. She believes that the Bible teaches that women are equal in the church
and in the home. While men and women are certainly different, the gender of a person does not give them
special gifts or favor with God. There are no scriptures that make a certain gender a requirement for service to
the Lord. Also, women should not be denied service in the church simply because she was born a woman.
Women are not incomplete human beings and do not need a leader. Men and women are to help each other in
the raising of their children - as it is the child who needs a leader, not the wife and mother.
The Complementarian Restrictionist view is held by the majority of the churches affiliated with the Southern
Baptist Convention (SBC). The Southern Baptist Convention has in its statement of faith The Baptist Faith and
Message 2000, which says in the Family Section that women need a husband as their leader, both in the
church and in the home. This BF&M 2000 also says that women cannot Biblically be called as a pastor. Almost
all churches that follow the BF&M 2000 will not allow women to be deacons, even though the BF&M 2000 does
not say that women cannot be deacons.
Many Baptist churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention hold the egalitarian view and in theory,
believe that women can be deacons or pastors, but few churches actually have women serving in those
capacities.
Will you join me in speaking out for women's equality in our churches?
Look into who's doing the exploitation
posted January 27, 2012
The Baptist Standard ran a story about sex trafficking of young girls. While young boys are also abused, it is mostly the girls.
Recently there has been much talk about this and various groups have discussed it. They focus on the exploitation of young girls
and boys. But what they are not saying is who is doing the exploitation.
For instance, if you have 10 girls under the age of 16 on the street selling their bodies, that doesn’t equate to 10 males. One male
cannot support one female or young boy on the street. I don’t know how many it takes, but you can be sure that for every youngster
on the street selling his or her body, there are multiple males who are buying.
Males make up 95 percent of the prisoners in Texas. Males start the wars, males are responsible for most of the killing of women
and children. Males use the services of prostitutes.
I listened to the Mark Driscoll interview found on the website of Pastor Jonathan Martin. Mark Driscoll speaks “boldly” about
sexual issues and this interview was prompted by his book on sex and marriage. He and Ed Young, Jr., a Southern Baptist pastor of
several off campus churches of his megachurch in the Dallas area, are on the forefront of bringing the bedroom into the church
house. A year or so ago, Ed Young, Jr literally brought a bed onto the stage and he and his wife were on the bed in front of the whole
congregation.
Dr Young, Jr. is currently promoting a series on sex for married couples. He calls it sexperiment.
This is voyeurism, folks. These pastors have forsaken the gospel and are parading themselves and their wives onto a national
stage of sexuality. A man who loves his wife will not parade her out onto a bed for the men in the audience to visualize. She is being
exploited, much like the young women sold on the streets. Like many of those young women, she cannot say ‘no.’
Remember that these wives, much like the pimped prostitutes, do not have any say in the matter. They are submissive wives
and when their husbands tell them to do that because he is her spiritual head and leader, she must do it. He may also throw in the
fact that the private planes, luxury vacations, fine clothes and jewelry, and the good life may also go down the drain if he can’t keep
titillating his congregation with something
In his interview, Mark Driscoll makes fun of women preachers. I doubt seriously that any woman preacher would engage in such
sexual exploitation of her husband. Mark Driscoll didn’t put his wife out on the bed as Ed Young, Jr, did, but he put her down as
being equal-but, and built up these men in his church as being the head of the women. While not specifically saying that there were
men in his church who engaged in various pornography, he says he councils men on this subject, which he is graphic about.
Both these pastors tell men that they are lord over their wives (the husband is the head of the wife) but that they must not lord it
over them. What do you think these men who are into pornography, bought sex, and without a history of knowing Christ, hear? They
hear exactly what the pastor wants them to hear – their wives were created to serve them, because women are not favored by God
enough to even be a deacon. Then they are apt to take it to another level, one of abuse and sexual exploitation. After all, one of these
pastors is sexually exploiting his wife on stage in front of the entire congregation.
Exploitation of women is society and church approved. It is approved by pastors who bring the bedroom into the church house. It
is approved in the churches where women are told that ANY KIND of husband is to be her leader and she is to submit to him. It is
approved in churches where certain offices are withheld from women on the basis that they are women and God does nott allow
women to serve in those hallowed offices. Don’t blame Eve. The Adams of the world need to keep their fig leaves stitched.
The preachers themselves are exploiting women, in particular their own wives, through the antics of the husbands who bring sex
into the conversation with the public.
How can they expect to keep women from being demeaned when they hold the bible over women’s heads and tell women that
they were created to have men control them?
Will you pray for a great awakening and getting off the bed and out of the bedroom for these pastors who continue to
demean all women by denying them full fellowship within the church, and who demean their wives in front of their
congregations?
posted January 27, 2012
The Baptist Standard ran a story about sex trafficking of young girls. While young boys are also abused, it is mostly the girls.
Recently there has been much talk about this and various groups have discussed it. They focus on the exploitation of young girls
and boys. But what they are not saying is who is doing the exploitation.
For instance, if you have 10 girls under the age of 16 on the street selling their bodies, that doesn’t equate to 10 males. One male
cannot support one female or young boy on the street. I don’t know how many it takes, but you can be sure that for every youngster
on the street selling his or her body, there are multiple males who are buying.
Males make up 95 percent of the prisoners in Texas. Males start the wars, males are responsible for most of the killing of women
and children. Males use the services of prostitutes.
I listened to the Mark Driscoll interview found on the website of Pastor Jonathan Martin. Mark Driscoll speaks “boldly” about
sexual issues and this interview was prompted by his book on sex and marriage. He and Ed Young, Jr., a Southern Baptist pastor of
several off campus churches of his megachurch in the Dallas area, are on the forefront of bringing the bedroom into the church
house. A year or so ago, Ed Young, Jr literally brought a bed onto the stage and he and his wife were on the bed in front of the whole
congregation.
Dr Young, Jr. is currently promoting a series on sex for married couples. He calls it sexperiment.
This is voyeurism, folks. These pastors have forsaken the gospel and are parading themselves and their wives onto a national
stage of sexuality. A man who loves his wife will not parade her out onto a bed for the men in the audience to visualize. She is being
exploited, much like the young women sold on the streets. Like many of those young women, she cannot say ‘no.’
Remember that these wives, much like the pimped prostitutes, do not have any say in the matter. They are submissive wives
and when their husbands tell them to do that because he is her spiritual head and leader, she must do it. He may also throw in the
fact that the private planes, luxury vacations, fine clothes and jewelry, and the good life may also go down the drain if he can’t keep
titillating his congregation with something
In his interview, Mark Driscoll makes fun of women preachers. I doubt seriously that any woman preacher would engage in such
sexual exploitation of her husband. Mark Driscoll didn’t put his wife out on the bed as Ed Young, Jr, did, but he put her down as
being equal-but, and built up these men in his church as being the head of the women. While not specifically saying that there were
men in his church who engaged in various pornography, he says he councils men on this subject, which he is graphic about.
Both these pastors tell men that they are lord over their wives (the husband is the head of the wife) but that they must not lord it
over them. What do you think these men who are into pornography, bought sex, and without a history of knowing Christ, hear? They
hear exactly what the pastor wants them to hear – their wives were created to serve them, because women are not favored by God
enough to even be a deacon. Then they are apt to take it to another level, one of abuse and sexual exploitation. After all, one of these
pastors is sexually exploiting his wife on stage in front of the entire congregation.
Exploitation of women is society and church approved. It is approved by pastors who bring the bedroom into the church house. It
is approved in the churches where women are told that ANY KIND of husband is to be her leader and she is to submit to him. It is
approved in churches where certain offices are withheld from women on the basis that they are women and God does nott allow
women to serve in those hallowed offices. Don’t blame Eve. The Adams of the world need to keep their fig leaves stitched.
The preachers themselves are exploiting women, in particular their own wives, through the antics of the husbands who bring sex
into the conversation with the public.
How can they expect to keep women from being demeaned when they hold the bible over women’s heads and tell women that
they were created to have men control them?
Will you pray for a great awakening and getting off the bed and out of the bedroom for these pastors who continue to
demean all women by denying them full fellowship within the church, and who demean their wives in front of their
congregations?